What’s Race (still) Got to Do With It?
One of Stephen Colbert’s funnier interviews must be the one with Debra Dickerson, author of The End of Blackness. In typical Colbertian fashion, he skewers her belief that Barack Obama is not “black”. Seeing it reminded me again of how strange it has been to find myself living in Montgomery, Alabama, even though I have now been here a little over three years.
I grew up in Florida but after I left for grad school in Iowa at 22, I never returned. Most of my adult life has been split between two very white New England states and Iowa. I never expected to leave New England.
Life, had different ideas. An attractive job offer brought me to a state that I had always regarded with the special horror that those of us who grew up in the 60s learned while watching George Wallace grandstanding against integration. Montgomery, Selma, Birmingham– those names were seared into our imaginations, as we watched the evening news. Like so many children, I was a romantic and a fervent supporter of integration.
I remember when my junior high school was integrated. On the first day of school hordes of reporters, parents and police stood milling at the front door while federal marshals drove up and deposited one rather small black girl. My friends and I had already decided that we would befriend her and protect her but, as I recall, no heroics were necessary. Well, after all, Florida was not Alabama.
I hadn’t had much chance to observe day-to-day interactions between the races during the twenty five years I lived in states in which it was possible to count the number of black families in most cities and towns on one hand. So I did not know what to expect, especially since southerners are still routinely held up as moronic racists in too many “liberal” venues.
Not too long after I arrived in Montgomery, I needed to attend a meeting in Birmingham of a professional association in which I had become an officer. Two of the other board members live in this area and we decided to go together. Not too far from Birmingham we were passed by a highway patrol car. That’s when the unthinkable happened.
The patrolman didn’t look at us twice. He just went on his way. He was uninterested in me and my two black colleagues. It hit me then how things had changed, since the 60s. Then, I couldn’t have been seen in a car with a black man (even though a black woman was also present) without the police stopping us. Now, it didn’t rate a second look. On the way back, we stopped at a restaurant for lunch. The place was full but I don’t recall seeing many single race tables.
I was filled with a peculiar kind of joy. This was my childhood dream fulfilled– white and black together and it was normal! I live in a nice middle class neighborhood that is almost half and half black and white. African Americans make up a good 30% of the student body at the university at which I am employed.
So, why do we still have a race problem? How can a black writer say that Barack Obama is not black? What is the problem?
March 12th, 2007 08:55
Believe me, us blacks still hold each other to some ridiculous “not black enough” standard:
Paula Mooney: She Talk Like a White Girl
March 12th, 2007 11:08
Because people keep talking it up like it’s something special that you were riding around with different people.
The #1 reason we still have race problems is a close race between the government (which likes to know where it’s supporters are and keep them there), the media (which likes to pit us against each other so that there might be titillating “news”), and guys like Sharpton, Jackson, etc. (who make a paycheck in a way very similar to the media).
For example: This last year’s Super Bowl was dominated by racism. It wasn’t overtly rude or discriminatory racism, but it was blatant. “OMG!!!11 The coaches are BLACK!!!” So what? They are GOOD COACHES, that’s what happened! Stop talking about them being black. It has nothing to do with it. It’s neither surprising, nor special that they happened to be black. It’s an accident, a circumstance, not the essence of why they are there.
Years ago there was a real problem in the US. Now there are factions that are trying to keep the problem alive for self-interest. They should all be ignored.
That’s my opinion.
March 12th, 2007 11:18
Let me proffer this as a possible answer: the fact that *you* were so aware (concerned, obsessed, whatever) of race that the policeman’s ignoring of same was notable to you.
As long as race is something that we insist on pointing out over and over and over, we will never get over the fact that race is a major deal to some.
We’ve got Black History Month. Isn’t it insulting to remind us one month out of the year, in case we might have forgotten, that “there are notable black people in history”?
We’ve got endless reports concerning ourselves with poor black families, uneducated Hispanic children, and over-achieving Asian immigrants.
And, of course, we have NAACP, LULAC, La Raza, and the like that seem to be implying that certain people have a right to better treatment because of their race. Wasn’t that the cause of the problem to begin with?
The problem is that, for many, it isn’t enough to say, “He’s a good man. We need to help that poor person. She deserves justice.” without getting into race.
Dan
March 12th, 2007 11:47
Paula: I clicked on your link and was quite moved by what you wrote. I am glad to have discovered you. I never knew that this kind of thinking existed, until I heard a discussion on BET fifteen or so years ago. What was worse, one young woman talked about being the less loved child because she was so much darker than her sister. How cruel we can be toward one another!
Scott and Dan: I think you are both making similar points and I am not quite sure how to respond to what you have written. I am going to have to think about it some more. I would say that I don’t know that it is possible to ignore race quite as radically as you are suggesting. I am also not sure that it is desirable. There is something very pleasing about our human diversity; our various cultures and traditions.
Beyond that, I would say that I am not so much “concerned or obsessed” with race, as I am interested in the reality of Alabama, as opposed to the mental image I have carried all these years. There is a great deal of hostility and downright prejudice expressed towards southerners, especially on left-leaning blogs. Much of it I shared, albeit not so consciously.
So I have been especially aware of all the experiences that I have been having that are diametrically opposed to the mental image I have carried all these years, which is, let us be honest, solidly rooted in historic reality.
I don’t think we can ignore race yet, though I wish it were as unimportant as eye color. But I will be interested to hear what others have to say.
March 12th, 2007 12:46
I would agree with Scott and Dan in that people place way too much emphasis on race when it is not necessary. For example: while at a job I had a while back a comment was made to me, it went like this, “You know the black guy in the cubicle next to me?…” To which my reply, after the story had been related, was “And what about the guy being black? The person looked at me confused and asked me what I meant. I told them, “You said the guy was black so I figured that it had some importance to the story. I mean you wouldn’t have said the white guy in the cubical unless it was significant to the story, so why did you point out the fact that the person was black? Why wasn’t he just; a person?” This throughly confused the person speaking to me, but I think he at least thought about what I said.
Personally, I love how the world is enriched by the diverse cultures and ethnicities, but I don’t see what positive benefit is derived from labeling people (Black, white, asian, gay, you name it). You can have and appreciate diversity without continuously pointing out certain characteristics of people. Seriously, how many of you would say, “You know that white gut in the cubicle next to me?”
March 12th, 2007 13:11
maeve
I’m almost to the point of needing an extra cubicle for my white gut!
Lilly,
To not focus all my attention on the race of a person in no way plays down diversity. It does the anti-racist thing and looks at a person for what they are, not for how they look.
Dan,
I agree, and what’s more: What’s insulting is to cram all the black history stuff into one month. Why do the black history things have to be segregated? Why do they have to get February?!?! “Sure, lets put all the black history in that dark and dreary month in the back….” That’s insulting.
March 12th, 2007 18:04
Hi Lily,
I can talk to my wife, co-workers, and professional acquaintances about “my boss”. As long as they know it’s “my boss”, it doesn’t matter if they know that the boss is male or female. So, there’s one point for eradicating sexism.
So, I don’t say “my female boss”. I wouldn’t say “my black boss”, either. Neither do I refer to my employees’ races, any more than would I refer to their creeds or religions.
Rick
March 12th, 2007 18:40
Hi Rick, hi maeve! Thanks for your comments.
Well, y’all are pretty much in agreement and I am in complete sympathy with the way of thinking that says race doesn’t matter. However, and not to put too fine a point upon it, it does still matter to a lot of people.
It is telling that it tends to be liberals who see racism everywhere and have made its extirpation so important a part of their political ideology. I wonder what it is that they are seeing. Are they reflecting on the past and unable to let it go? Or has race become an industry, as has been suggested here? Or is something going on that we are not seeing?
March 13th, 2007 20:44
This is my first time visiting BRAVE HUMANS blog. I plan to come back often as the commentary and the posts are well-written.
I enjoyed the post … I read it without knowing the race (or gender) of the posting. After awhile I figured out that the person doing the posting was white (…growing up in Iowa and New England was the giveaway…).
However, it wasn’t until the point in the story that the police car passed without incident that I figured out (assumed, as I still haven’t read the profile of the blog owner) that the person writing the posting was a white woman.
i’m a person of color … a person of African descent … an African American … a Blackman … use any of them that you desire. I’ve lived on both coasts and in the midwest for my 40+ years of existence. It is impossible to go more than a few hours (not counting sleeping hours) without being reminded of race. It has nothing to do with Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. It has everything to do with the way we talk, interact and associate with one another in our homes, our neighborhoods, our churches, our schools, our workplaces. Race is a factor … and the downside is that it is usually a negative factor when you have more melanin in your body.
Anyhow, I look forward to visiting often.
peace,
Villager
March 13th, 2007 21:35
Scott - not only is February the dark and dreary month, but as a friend of mine pointed out: “What?! The Black Man gets the shortest month of the year? What’s with that!?”
Lily, I can understand your epiphany a little bit better now. Living in Houston as I do, I’ve learned to filter out the “fly over country” bias of many (liberal and conservative) and forget how they perceive the Non-NY, Non-Conn, Non-LA country.
Race is real, absolutely. And, again, perhaps it’s living in an area so permeated by just about every race imaginable, but the only time I really “notice” race is when I’m somewhere that doesn’t have the ethnic diversity of Houston (as in, “Wow! It sure is white here!” when I visited Salt Lake City)
And I agree that it can’t be ignored. But that’s different than going around worrying about my or other peoples’ race before interacting with them. They’re people, after all, and any two people of a certain race are as different from each other as they are of any other race.
Yes, some people choose to so identify with their race that all other races are suspect. However, I would say that is a minority, so to speak, of the people out there in the world.
Dan
March 14th, 2007 08:17
Villager:
I am very glad you discovered us and thank you for your comments. You said that you are 40+ (as am I, obviously!) and I am quite sure that age plays a role in the way we perceive race– as opposed to younger people who take for granted things that people my age cannot, at least not entirely. I am, after all, old enough to remember when public restrooms were labelled “white” and “colored” (as were water fountains).
Dan: thanks for your interesting comments and for noticing that yes, I was writing about my “epiphany” which is really a wonderful way to put it! But it goes deeper than what I have written here. What I have been learning about Alabama, its people and its past has upset a whole lot of notions that I had and I hope to write about that a little more here. I figure that if an old dog can learn new tricks … well, they must be worth at least a passing mention!
March 14th, 2007 16:39
Hi Lily,
Just a quick vote for you to write a bit more about perception and reality in Alabama. I’d love to both read and discuss it.
-Grant
March 19th, 2007 04:39
Hello All,
Since we are all agreeing so nicely with each other, for the most part, which is wonderful to see and read, perhaps I can interject a few observations and points of discussion, which may reveal shearing points within our attitudes.
Fact #1 - Race is deeply inserted into our legal code.
Opinion - To the extent the laws explicitly favor one race at the expense of other races, there will be consternation and difficulty.
Our government collects data on our race in numerous forms. While there are several categories of “people of colour”, there is only one race for whites, “Caucasians”. Now personally, I find this offensive, as I would wish to identify myself as “Celtic, Irish”. But our government sees fit to only have one category for the majority, encompassing many peoples. If “Black”, or “Hispanic”, “Puerto Rican”, or “Native American” is self selectable or self identifyiing for others, why cannot I chose my proper group, and not be lumped in with those whom I feel a distinct difference to ? This alone keeps the stone of race firmly under our mattress, providing a constant source of irritation.
As a US Naval Officer working as an Officer Recruiter in the colleges and universities of Ohio, there were disparate real standards for the hiring of men and women, whites and blacks. Let me preface this with the observation that the Navy is no different than any other institution or group. One pays the going rate to hire new people. Do not think that there are not market forces in all hiring.
Lest one thinks these were preset by bias or prejudice, that could not be further from the case. The Navy was a hard sell for us to recruit black Americans, partly due to a historic role for them as cooks and personal servers to officers, and partly to the enormous numbers of their families with prior service and allegiance to the Army. It is hard to recruit women to the military profession in general, and to the Navy in particular due to the overwhelming emphasis on technical knowledge and abilities.
To hire a white male with math/science 3.0 GPA
To hire a white male with humanities 3.5 GPA
To hire a black male with science/math 2.0 GPA
To hire a black male with humanities 2.0 GPA
To hire a white female with math/science 2.5 GPA
To hire a white female with humanities 3.0 GPA
To hire a black female with math/science 2.0 GPA
To hire a black female with humanities 2.5 GPA
Those major/GPA pairings were the minimum levels that the Navy had to go down to, to get the target percentages mandated by law, or mandated by superiors tryiing to meet social expectations of proportional racial representation. The expectation was that each subgroup would be proportionally represented in both the enlisted sailor ranks and the officer ranks. This achievement rests on the assumption that each subgroup is graduating a similar percentage of its menbers, and that there is an inclination for all groups to choose broadly and evenly accross the public, private, corporate, academic and military jobs.
The fallacy of the reality is that the black Aamericans are not graduating a percentage of their numbers equivalent to their population. Black Americans constitute approximately 11 % of the entire population. There is nowhere near 11 % of the college graduates nationwide each year being black Americans. This means that every organization in America is striving to recruit those proportionally few black graduates. While this is good for those lucky individuals, it means that collectively, the recruiting organizations are engaged in a game of musical chairs for minority staffing. It also means that the race baiters and idealogues can statistically prove on any third Wednesday they choose, that an organization has not it’s proper proportion of minority hires, and is ipso facto, discriminating and is implicitly a racist organization.
Fact #2 - If “quotas” in any form are mandated, and the supply of properly qualified candidates are not sufficient to the demand, less than qualified candidates will be hired.
Opinion - As long as there is a disparity of perceived or real hiring standards, there will be hard feelings and division among our people.
As long as there are disparities in hiring standards, there will be questions of the competence of all the favored group.
In my business, which is flying as a pilot for a living, both military and civilian, the winnowing process is color and gender free in my experience. While I will admit to the probability of bias and prejudice among my peers, I have not seen it personally, nor have I heard of it in the context of first person stories.
We, as a group, really only care and admire the ability of a man or woman to measure up to the high and exacting standards of performance required. If you are good enough, you are good enough, and damn any who say all else about you. Remember, the person I fly with may be the person who stops me from killing myself. I’d fly with Chewbacca or a Twi’leck if they are good enough.
In my business, I know by the time we level off at cruising altitude just how competent my copilot is. I am not sure that there is so clear a line of demonstrated conduct in other professions, and the suspicions remain, however hard we try to avoid them. This is a nasty distraction in our professional encounters.
Fact #3 - Race Baiters and Government/Academic elites profit from the constant drumbeat of inequality due solely to racial disparity.
Opinion - Those who propose that racial bias and prejudice is currently no different from the historical past, and particularly since the passage of the Civil Rights Act, are exagerating the racial disparities for personal or professional gain, at the expense of our citizenry in general, and to the detriment of lower achieving individuals in particular.
The race baiters use the statistical diproportions to effect greenmail shakedowns. Obviously, this is a serious and straightforward profit motive understandable by all of us, even though it disgusts us. The more esoteric position is the professional academic whose career advancement and publishing profits emanate from continual findings of racial divide in our people.
The disenfranchised gain from the built-in excuse for low achievement. After all, their leaders claim, and the academics prove, that failure is not their fault. It is my fault because I have taken the good positions while keeping them out. And now it is up to the leaders to demand proper assistance from my earnings to support them since I have benefited from their loss.
Or so the myth goes ……..
The time of overt racism is over. In fact the institutional bias has gone over to the opposite leaning. If one is of a favored sub-group, it is assumed that one needs more than an even opportunity. It assumes that if one is merely a black American, one is disadvanteged and is entitled to extra consideration, assistance and support.
As a Navy Recruiter, I spoke to a mentored group of black American students at the Univ of Cincinnati in Cincinnati, Ohio. For the status of being black, each one had a personal individual black American mentor, charged with overseeing and guiding their student to graduation. Among other possibilities these students had the fortune to listen to speakers of various organizations brief them on career opportunites. I was one of two featured speakers that night.
Both of us were white, one military, one private, large company. Each of us were offering multiple years of tuition payments, job openings at the professional entry level, and in his case, free postgraduate tuition with no follow on obligation.
While I did not expect to sign up a majority of the class, I was astounded that neither of us were even approached after the formal remarks to even inquire into the programs we had to offer. Do you know what I would have done to have had that kind of support and handholding during college ? I dare say I would not have flunked out, and definitely would have had a much more impressive GPA.
The ironic part is that a significant number of those students came from college educated families, most of their parents being members of the professional class. They came from a high income background, with a rich learning environment at home. Merely based upon the color of their skin were they included in this Scholars Program.
We came from the home of a working man, who left school in his second year of high school, and had little ambition for his children beyond a working education, to wit, high school. We worked for the school for tuition reduction, took the public bus to school, and never had a family car.
In a dispassionate comparison, which of these two had the need for assistance and favored status ? I do not complain for my background, for I am content with my lot in life and proud of my achievements.
I ask, is the racial bias in the law, as it exists today, helpful for the country or does it hold us back in significant ways ?
March 19th, 2007 10:57
Denis, thank you so much for your commentary. You have gone where I hoped this thread might go– to a discussion of what has happened in the intervening 45 years to keep us so so race conscious. I have had equally troubling experiences, working as I do in academia.
In fact, a few years back I was on a search committee to fill a vacancy for a faculty position. When the dean gave us our charge, she told us in no uncertain terms that no whites need apply. Now I understand that in a predominantly white state in a predominantly white profession, finding a diverse slate of candidates is virtually impossible. But the result was a disaster.
Are these growing pains for us as a society? In a human’s life, 45 years is what? almost 2/3 of the life span that most of us can hope to enjoy. But in the life of a nation or an institution it is a drop in the bucket.
April 2nd, 2007 23:00
Prejudice is human nature. Why fight it? There will always be prejudice - be thankful. Without it, you could not survive as a human. Think about it.
April 3rd, 2007 09:36
Hi Bob-
Interesting statement, and I have thought about it, but I’d like to know what you meant by it. Could you please elaborate on this?
One thing I’ve learned on this site is not to automatically assume I know what someone means.
Thanks
Susan
April 3rd, 2007 17:26
As I saw this thread come around again, I followed a few Comments back to other blogs. While I do think that Denis (comment 13, above) and Lily (14) make good comments, I think that they are the other side of the coin that is still in spin. Lily, is that what you mean about these being “growing pains?” Denis contends “The time of overt racism is over. In fact the institutional bias has gone over to the opposite leaning.”
I’d recommend everyone interested to follow Villager’s link (comment 9 above) back to his post on Do We Care For our Children, and then link to Shaquanda Cotton for her story. The Chicago Tribune story at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070331shaquanda,1,7488591.story?coll=chi-news-hed
gives the story of the ongoing investigation into institutionalized racism that some citizens are still dealing with. Very powerful stuff. One interesting aspect of it was a judge jailing this one kid for shoving a hall monitor, but giving parole to another kid who was convicted of arson and who then broke parole. Neither had criminal records. The first is black. The second is white. And the school is under federal investigation (not for this incident) regarding institutionalized racism.
Denis and I have had the recruitment conversation before. He makes some good and thoughtful points Sometimes both ends of the spectrum are problematic. But I believe we need to thoughtfully address both ends of the problem , without denying either one, to get to some better future.
And while I will delay judgement on Bob’s true opinion and meaning, I will answer the *words* of his question: Why fight it? In Shaquanda’s case, I say this. Because it is wrong, and it must be fought if we are to consider ourselves decent people.
April 3rd, 2007 22:50
Whoops. I said parole in the last post; I meant probation. Sorry for any confusion.
April 4th, 2007 01:11
This is a response to points in Post 17 above.
There is a statement, “While I do think that Denis (comment 13, above) and Lily (14) make good comments, I think that they are the other side of the coin that is still in spin.”
These original comments and observations are reduced to “spin”. There is no offering of facts or personal experience to counter the points being made. There is a bland assertion of “spin”. This is an unfair treatment. It amounts to name calling, an ad hominem argument.
{American Heritage Dictionary - Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives}
The article on the disparity in sentences is interesting and illuminating. There is a bias, at the least and probably a prejudice, on the parts of the Judge and the school officials. That this exists is difficult. I agree that it must be fought, because it is wrong. However, one data point does not a trend make.
The article goes on to say that the Texas state authorities in Education and in Juvenile justice, the Texas Youth Commission, were each exercising their proper oversight and were taking immediate appropriate corrective action. This example supports my original point that the days of overt, institutional racism are over. Bob’s point that bias and racism are endemic to the human condition is well taken. What this article shows is that there are individuals and some groups who act on their impulses, but our society, through our institutions, is alert to injustice and acts to remedy the harm.
The second argument s that of an egregious individual example, inferring from the single particular a comparable bias in the general. The argument seems to be that if there is one disheartening example, then we as a people are somehow equally tainted. I must respectfully reject this line of thought. There are despicable individuals and despicable individual acts throughout our very large and diverse society. We do not, after all, engage in thought or behavior control. We set a standard of acceptable legal behavior, and have a legal code of consequences for the unlawful.
That most of our people live within this standard is much more powerful stuff than one, or even several, lawbreakers. Most of our people aspire to the best ideals of our nation every day, despite our myriad differences and disputes. Our strength is best illuminated by the rarity of such incidents, and the remedies applied by individuals and groups.
One further point:
On this site, I expect that rebuttals and responses to my posts will address the points I make. I expect my observations, thoughts and comments to be received respectfully. I expect to be rebutted with facts, counterpoints, and other’s personal observations on the topic.
If I am to be lightly dismissed by name calling, by characterizing my contributions as spin, by personal attacks, then this site has already failed. In my time on this site, I have thoroughly enjoyed the give and take, the intellectual striving to understand. I have also experienced being called names, having my religious beliefs ridiculed and questioned, had my comments reduced to cynical manipulations as spin. If these themes are continued, this site will be a parody of itself.
This site has such incredible potential, but only if all comers are truely welcomed and valued. I do not expect those of differing social, political sensibilities to agree with me, but it is essential, even crucial that our differences and disagreements are seen to be with what we advocate and not with who we are.
Sincerely,
Denis
April 4th, 2007 10:21
Hi Denis-
Just wanted you to know that for me, personally, even though we often disagree, I value your contributions to the site. I think they are thoughtful and articulate.
That said, I must say that I interpreted the “spinning coin” comment to mean that the racism issue is still in play; the coin is still spinning and has not yet settled. I did not interpret it in the pejorative sense.
Of course, I could be wrong about that. I could even be missing your point, Denis. The frustration of deciphering meaning on-line sometimes gets to me.
Susan
April 4th, 2007 12:58
Susan and Nick,
I did take the comment regarding ’spin’ as pejorative.
If I am incorrect in how it was used , then please ignore my comments on ’spin’, as I would not have made them with the understanding that the comment was about racism as an active issue in America.
I will still stand by my claim that acceptable racism is not a position held by our society at large, nor by our governmental institutions, nor by our educational, military, legal, or religious institutions. Most of our voluntary associations decry it as their policy, as do most of our citizens in their own persons.
We cannot root it out of the hearts of those who wish to harbor such ill-feeling and small-mindedness. We can, and have made a sea change in the stance of our society as a whole and continue to oppose those who would turn back the clock.
Regards,
Denis
April 4th, 2007 19:34
I took the spinning coin refererence just as Susan did–but I had to go back and read the sentence a second time. It does show clearly how an innocent, one syllable word can have its meaning forever changed by (mis)use.
On the subject of race, I am pretty solidly of your opinion, Denis. I am troubled, as I have written, by how incredibly race conscious we are 40+ years after the Civil Rights Act (the watershed race-related event in my life time). But, upon reflection, I realized that 40 years is a drop in the bucket in the life time of a nation, while it is about half the life time of a human being.
It may very well be that we will get past group set-asides, privileging of one group over another, etc. If so, then this period will come to be seen, I think, as a period of “growing pains” and an inevitable part of our quest to create a juster society.
April 5th, 2007 07:33
Hi Denis- this is me, still spinning from the reaction to my “coin stil in spin” phrase. Yep, Lily and Susan read me the way I intended to write it, as a metaphor for an issue where there is still some movement.
You did elaborate your concerns about my respect for your argument by saying “I expect my observations, thoughts and comments to be received respectfully.”
I thought I had you covered when I said “Denis and I have had the recruitment conversation before. He makes some good and thoughtful points.” Note that I also referred to Lily’s “growing pains comment” which was a further support of your argument.
You go on to say” I expect to be rebutted with facts, counterpoints, and other’s personal observations on the topic.”
Is there then something lacking in my next comment: “Sometimes both ends of the spectrum are problematic. But I believe we need to thoughtfully address both ends of the problem , without denying either one, to get to some better future.” I thought I was clearly recognizing your argument, supporting it in fact, and also broadening the dialogue. It was not my attempt to belittle, name-call, or ignore you. Clearly I have failed. What would you like me to say?
You also note “I agree that it must be fought, because it is wrong. However, one data point does not a trend make.” I do note that I only gave one example. If I give one example, you can (and apparently do) dismiss it as a blip on the screen. Is that not a technique which minimizes the importance of my thoughts and concerns without responding to them? If I had gone to the trouble of listing ten such cases, or a hundred (and I found many, through the wonders of Google) then I would be open to the criticism of overwhelming my opponent with data, or each could be dismissed on individual merits rather than reading for the point I was making. We both know rhetoric. It seems you have me either way. I withdraw.
I regret that I do not have time to respond to all of your arguments and assertions. As you have noted yourself, you do write at length. Sadly for this interaction, I must now go to work, hoping that I am not offending you yet again by my brief response.
Lily- your comment “It may very well be that we will get past group set-asides, privileging of one group over another, etc. If so, then this period will come to be seen, I think, as a period of “growing pains” and an inevitable part of our quest to create a juster society.” is what I was trying to get at. I envy your clarity of writing, and your reception.
Just Human.
Nick
April 9th, 2007 05:20
Nick,
Please accept my public apology for completely misreading your comment and reacting as if it were so. It was unkind on my part and unwise to react in such a manner.
Sincerely,
Denis